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Introduction and proposed contribution



Tim,

The most effective way to run emacspeak side-by-side with Gnome/X
is to do the following:

1. I run emacs inside screen on a virtual console outside of X
--- being able to power detach and reattach from elsewhere is too
important to give up -- something that Gnome wont give you
easily.

2. With emacs 23 and later you can do the following in gnome:
alt-f2 to bring up the run dialog, and invoke emacsclient -c
this will open a new frame on  your already running emacs but on
the X side.
2. When done you can always just kill this frame with C-x 5 0
Note:if you shutdown  X or log out your session without closing
this frame, emacs will crash.

3. To silence orca when in emacs:orca has a self-voicing.py
script or something similar --- copy it to emacs.py. It's not a
foolproof solution but mostly silences orca.




-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman


On 2/12/11, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> wrote:
> Just a couple of comments re: emacspeak, espeak, orca and terminals.
>
> Firstly, the ubuntu distribtuion of espeak does not work well with
> emacspeak. The problem is that espeak by default is linked against
> portaudio. I fixed this problem by building from sources and linking against
> pulseaudio and it works fine. All the distro releases I tried were unusable
> - cut off speech, sluggish etc.
>
> With regard to terminals, I would try running emacs and emacspeak inside a
> tradtional xterm rather than gnome-terminal. Last time I looked (a while
> ago, so this may be out of date), orca did not speech enable basic xterm, so
> I was able to get reasonable success using emacs inside an xterm rather than
> a gnome-terminal. May be worth looking at.
>
> Also, while I've not used it in a while, there were modules avaiialable to
> make emacs and emacspeak communicate with firefox, allowing you to let
> firefox render pages (including fava script) and using emacspeak to speak
> them. Last time I looked the necessary firefox modules were out of date
> (i.e. not working with the latest firefox, but I've not looked at this in
> some time).
>
> Tim
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Alex Midence <alex.midence@gmail.com>wrote:
>
>> Putting Emacspeak on a live cd is being ironed out right now by the
>> Vinux project.  A blind user will have all the screen
>> reading/accessing tools available at their disposal right out of the
>> box, Speakup, Orca, Yasr and, if it can be managed, Emacspeak.  Also,
>> there is no menu of choices.  Orca and Speakup just come up talking in
>> their respective environments without conflict thanks even on LIve cd
>> as long as the user has a sound card because the speech synth is
>> e-speak.  Emacspeak might be made to come up automatically in TTY1,
>> Speakup with Gnu Screen in TTY2 and the x-windows session in 7.  The
>> user can commence to work immediately while still having all the tools
>> they need to customize it however they want.  Yasr is there for
>> emergencies and for those partial to it as well.  With Emacspeak
>> included, the user will have all the productivity and efficiency it
>> offers right away.  The current issue standing in the way is that
>> Emacspeak doesn't seem to play nice with Orca.  "East is East and West
>> is West and never the twain shall meet," as the saying goes.  Running
>> emacspeak in a gnome terminal with an -nw switch keeps Gnome from
>> locking up but Orca won't get out of the way and stop talking so
>> Emacspeak can be used effectively.  Some people want to be able to use
>> it in Gnome to be able to use Firefox for Javascript pages, you see.
>> There was another which was ironed out where Emacs was making itself
>> the default editor for Gnome which a lot of users would object to.
>> So, getting Emacspeak to work within x-windows side  by side with Orca
>> is the current thing being worked out.  While Tony Sales, the creator
>> of Vinux irons out a pre-installation or a shell script that
>> accomplishes this for people, I'm going to see if Orca can be silenced
>> in the terminals to be supplanted with Yasr for this environment and
>> then have emacspeak come up with Yasr put somehow to sleep.  This way,
>> if users want to do something else in the terminal, they still have a
>> screen reader.  I don't know Yasr well so, this will involve lots of
>> trial and error.  I don't use Emacspeak this way.  I have serious
>> doubts that this can be done as well as it can inside a console with
>> speakup.
>>
>>
>> Have a good evening, all
>>
>> Alex M
>> On 2/12/11, Steve Holmes <steve@holmesgrown.com> wrote:
>> > This live CD idea sounds like it would be fun to build.  Maybe I'll
>> > get started.
>> >
>> > I agree that so many emacs applications and emacs, in general for that
>> > matter, don't offer a lot for startup configurations.  A fresh install
>> > of emacs or anything related to it has always required a user to
>> > completely populate the configuration parameters from scratch and copy
>> > whatever from info pages and the like.  I rather like the idea of
>> > fully loaded configurations with self-describing comments to help out
>> > the person going through the file.  Many other linux type applications
>> > do this.  Take Samba, mysql, postgresql and others for example.  But
>> > for a new-comer, even the self-commented config files would be rather
>> > daunting.  So a pre-built live CD deal may be good but it will have to
>> > be emphasised that there are many other user definable choices and
>> > make it clear that to get even more out of this new environment, "you"
>> > the user, will need to study the materials and gain a comfort level
>> > making changes to emacs.  The custom facility in emacs does make this
>> > considerablly easier than before.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 01:58:00AM -0600, Stephen Cagle wrote:
>> >> Agreed, live CD would probably be even better than virtual machine.
>> >> Good
>> >> idea.
>> >>
>> >> I agree that we should not assume that we are smart enough to know the
>> >> type
>> >> of uses people will find for emacs. We should not discard anyone. I
>> think
>> >> one of the biggest hurdles to trying emacspeak out is actually
>> >> installing/configuring the software. Live CD would allow people to
>> easily
>> >> demonstrate the power of emacspeak anywhere or to anyone.
>> >>
>> >> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Jude DaShiell
>> >> <jdashiel@shellworld.net>wrote:
>> >>
>> >> > It all comes down to exposure possibilities.  One of the secretaries
>> who
>> >> > worked in my first full-time job location had emacs installed on her
>> >> > computer and it was known all over the base that anyone attempting to
>> >> > replace it with a Microsoft product was going to get themselves hurt.
>> >> > She also had the full support of her boss in this respect, and it
>> >> > doesn't
>> >> > pay to mess around with security types.  I'm sure that secretary
>> >> > would
>> >> > have had little to no problem with emacspeak too.  I'm wondering now
>> how
>> >> > hard it would be to make an emacspeak live cd and then put it up on
>> the
>> >> > internet for people to download and try.  If it had an installation
>> >> > script
>> >> > on it so that emacspeak and Linux could take over an entire computer
>> >> > when
>> >> > the user was confident enough with it, then many of the issues with
>> >> > respect to installation guides at least would go away for those using
>> >> > the
>> >> > live cd.  Unfortunately most of my time is taken up by windows or by
>> now
>> >> > I
>> >> > might have learned how to do this and got it done. On Sat, 12 Feb
>> 2011,
>> >> > Tim Cross wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Stephen Cagle <samedhi@gmail.com>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > I think we can all agree that T.V. Raman is a fine technical
>> writer.
>> >> > > > I
>> >> > > > think there is however a rather limited number of up to date
>> >> > > > AND singularly sourced guides to getting started with emacspeak.
>> If
>> >> > someone
>> >> > > > wants to make a minimal "getting up and running with emacspeak"
>> >> > > > guide,
>> >> > then
>> >> > > > I think that would be quite a boon to emacspeak in general.
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > There have been several efforts to create 'friendly' user guides,
>> >> > > getting
>> >> > > started tutorials, etc. The real problem is that once written, they
>> >> > > are
>> >> > not
>> >> > > maintained and over time, become increasingly out of date.  Rather
>> >> > > than
>> >> > > re-invent the wheel, I think it would be better to start with
>> >> > > something
>> >> > like
>> >> > >  the installation-guide and users-guide which come with emacspeak.
>> >> > > Contributions and improvements to these guides have always been
>> >> > > welcomed
>> >> > in
>> >> > > the past. It is better to have one definitive guide for
>> >> > > installation
>> >> > > and
>> >> > use
>> >> > > rather than multiple guides scattered around the net in various
>> stages
>> >> > > of
>> >> > > copleteness or levels of accuracy.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Just some random things to consider:
>> >> > > > Will emacspeak ever be useful to less technically inclined
>> >> > > > people?
>> >> > > > That
>> >> > is,
>> >> > > > will it always primarily be used by programmers and other
>> technical
>> >> > persons
>> >> > > > who use emacs? Is it possible to get less technical people to use
>> >> > emacs? Is
>> >> > > > it worthwhile?
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Certainly possible for less technical people to use it. Probably
>> not
>> >> > > worhtwhile trying to do so. I think the best course of action is to
>> >> > > make
>> >> > > emacspeak as good as possible, with good documentation and let its
>> >> > > main
>> >> > > drawing power be its alternative (and I would argue better)
>> approach.
>> >> > > If
>> >> > it
>> >> > > has enough of an advantage over alternatives, it will attract those
>> >> > > who
>> >> > > would benefit/appreciate its difference.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Finally, what about virtualization solutions today? Perhaps a
>> >> > > vmware
>> >> > > (or
>> >> > > > some other) image of a Linux distro with emacspeak properly set
>> >> > > > up
>> >> > > > and
>> >> > > > configured could be created. This would allow novices to "test
>> >> > > > drive"
>> >> > > > emacspeak without having to take the full Linux/emacs/emacspeak
>> >> > > > plunge.
>> >> > I
>> >> > > > think this might make Alex's goal of bringing emacspeak to the
>> >> > > > windows
>> >> > > > masses easier, as they would not have to worry about the initial
>> >> > hardware
>> >> > > > question.
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > > Hmm - not sure. Those who are uncomfortable with the hardware and
>> >> > > > Linux
>> >> > are
>> >> > > probably going to be just as uncomfortable with an appliance
>> approach
>> >> > > and
>> >> > > dealing with virtual machines/images etc.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > I think a better approach would be to help out one of the
>> 'specialist'
>> >> > > distros like vinux to make sure the emacspeak they include in the
>> >> > > distro
>> >> > is
>> >> > > as robust and optimally configured as possible. People can then run
>> >> > > from
>> >> > the
>> >> > > live cd image to try things out and later, if they want to, either
>> do
>> >> > > a
>> >> > dual
>> >> > > boot or a virtual image.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > Tim
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > >
>> >> > > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Jason White <jason@jasonjgw.net>
>> >> > wrote:
>> >> > > >
>> >> > > >> Alex Midence <alex.midence@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> > I've noticed in my learning of Emacspeak that, while there are
>> >> > plenty
>> >> > > >> > of reference materials, the number of up-to-date
>> >> > > >> > tutorial-style
>> >> > > >> > documents geared towards a raw newbie are somewhat sparse and
>> >> > > >> > spread
>> >> > > >> > out and are written in a way that someone coming from a strong
>> Ms
>> >> > > >> > Windows background would find rather laborious to follow,
>> >> > > >> > increasing
>> >> > > >> > their learning curve unnecessarily.  This is probably because
>> >> > > >> > a
>> >> > > >> > lot
>> >> > of
>> >> > > >> > it was written by people who have used Linux for longer than
>> >> > > >> > Windows
>> >> > > >> > has been accessible (oh, what a battle that has been!) and, as
>> is
>> >> > the
>> >> > > >> > case with many a developer, are more comfortable writing code
>> >> > > >> > than
>> >> > > >> > writing documents.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> Actually, T.V. Raman, the author of Emacspeak, is one of the
>> >> > > >> most
>> >> > > >> accomplished
>> >> > > >> technical writers that I have encountered - he is adept at
>> writing
>> >> > prose
>> >> > > >> as
>> >> > > >> well as code.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> I would suggest reading his papers describing Emacspeak before
>> you
>> >> > embark
>> >> > > >> on
>> >> > > >> preparing a tutorial; this will give you a deeper understanding
>> of
>> >> > > >> the
>> >> > > >> design
>> >> > > >> principles of the Emacspeak user interface.
>> >> > > >> > What I propose to do is to write a simple tutorial for
>> newcomers
>> >> > > >> > to
>> >> > > >> > Emacspeak geared towards people who are new to command line,
>> >> > > >> > Linux
>> >> > and
>> >> > > >> Emacs
>> >> > > >> > as well.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> A fundamental question that I would suggest considering is this:
>> >> > > >> what
>> >> > do
>> >> > > >> such
>> >> > > >> people really need to know before they can comfortably read
>> >> > > >> Emacs
>> >> > > >> documentation, manual pages, HOWTO documents and other sources?
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >> I have read claims in several places to the effect that it's
>> harder
>> >> > for
>> >> > > >> former
>> >> > > >> MS-Windows users to learn a UNIX-like environment than it is for
>> >> > absolute
>> >> > > >> beginners who have had no prior computing experience.
>> >> > > >> Presumably,
>> >> > > >> to
>> >> > the
>> >> > > >> extent that this is the case, it is because MS-Windows users
>> >> > > >> have
>> >> > > >> to
>> >> > set
>> >> > > >> aside
>> >> > > >> their prior knowledge and habits in making the adjustment. I'm
>> only
>> >> > > >> speculating here; the last Microsoft product that I ever used
>> >> > > >> was
>> >> > > >> DOS
>> >> > 6
>> >> > > >> and I
>> >> > > >> opted entirely out of Windows in favour of Linux at that time.
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >>
>> >> >
>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>> with
>> >> > > >> a
>> >> > > >> subject of "unsubscribe" or "help".
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>> >> > > >>
>> >> > > >
>> >> > >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >
>> >
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>> >
>>
>>
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