Re: Introduction and proposed contribution

[Jude DaShiell <jdashiel@xxxxxxxxxxx>]

Also, control-alt-f1 then log into a console, then run emacs and 
emacspeak.On Mon, 14 Feb 2011, Steve Holmes wrote:

> Another way to silence Orca while using emacs would be to hit Orca+s
> to stop speech.  This isn't automated but I would think more solid
> than the silence.py script.  I'll have to play with silence.py though
> to see how well that works for me.  If solid enough, I'd rather use
> that when wanting to curtail speech on a temperary basis.
> 
> Thanks for the notes.  I've always wanted to be able to use emacs
> while in gnome.
> 
> On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 06:23:36PM -0800, T.V. Raman wrote:
> > Tim,
> > 
> > The most effective way to run emacspeak side-by-side with Gnome/X
> > is to do the following:
> > 
> > 1. I run emacs inside screen on a virtual console outside of X
> > --- being able to power detach and reattach from elsewhere is too
> > important to give up -- something that Gnome wont give you
> > easily.
> > 
> > 2. With emacs 23 and later you can do the following in gnome:
> > alt-f2 to bring up the run dialog, and invoke emacsclient -c
> > this will open a new frame on  your already running emacs but on
> > the X side.
> > 2. When done you can always just kill this frame with C-x 5 0
> > Note:if you shutdown  X or log out your session without closing
> > this frame, emacs will crash.
> > 
> > 3. To silence orca when in emacs:orca has a self-voicing.py
> > script or something similar --- copy it to emacs.py. It's not a
> > foolproof solution but mostly silences orca.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
> > Best Regards,
> > --raman
> > 
> > -- 
> > Best Regards,
> > --raman
> > 
> > 
> > On 2/12/11, Tim Cross <theophilusx@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > > Just a couple of comments re: emacspeak, espeak, orca and terminals.
> > >
> > > Firstly, the ubuntu distribtuion of espeak does not work well with
> > > emacspeak. The problem is that espeak by default is linked against
> > > portaudio. I fixed this problem by building from sources and linking against
> > > pulseaudio and it works fine. All the distro releases I tried were unusable
> > > - cut off speech, sluggish etc.
> > >
> > > With regard to terminals, I would try running emacs and emacspeak inside a
> > > tradtional xterm rather than gnome-terminal. Last time I looked (a while
> > > ago, so this may be out of date), orca did not speech enable basic xterm, so
> > > I was able to get reasonable success using emacs inside an xterm rather than
> > > a gnome-terminal. May be worth looking at.
> > >
> > > Also, while I've not used it in a while, there were modules avaiialable to
> > > make emacs and emacspeak communicate with firefox, allowing you to let
> > > firefox render pages (including fava script) and using emacspeak to speak
> > > them. Last time I looked the necessary firefox modules were out of date
> > > (i.e. not working with the latest firefox, but I've not looked at this in
> > > some time).
> > >
> > > Tim
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Feb 13, 2011 at 4:37 PM, Alex Midence <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> > >
> > >> Putting Emacspeak on a live cd is being ironed out right now by the
> > >> Vinux project.  A blind user will have all the screen
> > >> reading/accessing tools available at their disposal right out of the
> > >> box, Speakup, Orca, Yasr and, if it can be managed, Emacspeak.  Also,
> > >> there is no menu of choices.  Orca and Speakup just come up talking in
> > >> their respective environments without conflict thanks even on LIve cd
> > >> as long as the user has a sound card because the speech synth is
> > >> e-speak.  Emacspeak might be made to come up automatically in TTY1,
> > >> Speakup with Gnu Screen in TTY2 and the x-windows session in 7.  The
> > >> user can commence to work immediately while still having all the tools
> > >> they need to customize it however they want.  Yasr is there for
> > >> emergencies and for those partial to it as well.  With Emacspeak
> > >> included, the user will have all the productivity and efficiency it
> > >> offers right away.  The current issue standing in the way is that
> > >> Emacspeak doesn't seem to play nice with Orca.  "East is East and West
> > >> is West and never the twain shall meet," as the saying goes.  Running
> > >> emacspeak in a gnome terminal with an -nw switch keeps Gnome from
> > >> locking up but Orca won't get out of the way and stop talking so
> > >> Emacspeak can be used effectively.  Some people want to be able to use
> > >> it in Gnome to be able to use Firefox for Javascript pages, you see.
> > >> There was another which was ironed out where Emacs was making itself
> > >> the default editor for Gnome which a lot of users would object to.
> > >> So, getting Emacspeak to work within x-windows side  by side with Orca
> > >> is the current thing being worked out.  While Tony Sales, the creator
> > >> of Vinux irons out a pre-installation or a shell script that
> > >> accomplishes this for people, I'm going to see if Orca can be silenced
> > >> in the terminals to be supplanted with Yasr for this environment and
> > >> then have emacspeak come up with Yasr put somehow to sleep.  This way,
> > >> if users want to do something else in the terminal, they still have a
> > >> screen reader.  I don't know Yasr well so, this will involve lots of
> > >> trial and error.  I don't use Emacspeak this way.  I have serious
> > >> doubts that this can be done as well as it can inside a console with
> > >> speakup.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Have a good evening, all
> > >>
> > >> Alex M
> > >> On 2/12/11, Steve Holmes <steve@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> > This live CD idea sounds like it would be fun to build.  Maybe I'll
> > >> > get started.
> > >> >
> > >> > I agree that so many emacs applications and emacs, in general for that
> > >> > matter, don't offer a lot for startup configurations.  A fresh install
> > >> > of emacs or anything related to it has always required a user to
> > >> > completely populate the configuration parameters from scratch and copy
> > >> > whatever from info pages and the like.  I rather like the idea of
> > >> > fully loaded configurations with self-describing comments to help out
> > >> > the person going through the file.  Many other linux type applications
> > >> > do this.  Take Samba, mysql, postgresql and others for example.  But
> > >> > for a new-comer, even the self-commented config files would be rather
> > >> > daunting.  So a pre-built live CD deal may be good but it will have to
> > >> > be emphasised that there are many other user definable choices and
> > >> > make it clear that to get even more out of this new environment, "you"
> > >> > the user, will need to study the materials and gain a comfort level
> > >> > making changes to emacs.  The custom facility in emacs does make this
> > >> > considerablly easier than before.
> > >> >
> > >> > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 01:58:00AM -0600, Stephen Cagle wrote:
> > >> >> Agreed, live CD would probably be even better than virtual machine.
> > >> >> Good
> > >> >> idea.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> I agree that we should not assume that we are smart enough to know the
> > >> >> type
> > >> >> of uses people will find for emacs. We should not discard anyone. I
> > >> think
> > >> >> one of the biggest hurdles to trying emacspeak out is actually
> > >> >> installing/configuring the software. Live CD would allow people to
> > >> easily
> > >> >> demonstrate the power of emacspeak anywhere or to anyone.
> > >> >>
> > >> >> On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 12:45 AM, Jude DaShiell
> > >> >> <jdashiel@xxxxxxxxxxx>wrote:
> > >> >>
> > >> >> > It all comes down to exposure possibilities.  One of the secretaries
> > >> who
> > >> >> > worked in my first full-time job location had emacs installed on her
> > >> >> > computer and it was known all over the base that anyone attempting to
> > >> >> > replace it with a Microsoft product was going to get themselves hurt.
> > >> >> > She also had the full support of her boss in this respect, and it
> > >> >> > doesn't
> > >> >> > pay to mess around with security types.  I'm sure that secretary
> > >> >> > would
> > >> >> > have had little to no problem with emacspeak too.  I'm wondering now
> > >> how
> > >> >> > hard it would be to make an emacspeak live cd and then put it up on
> > >> the
> > >> >> > internet for people to download and try.  If it had an installation
> > >> >> > script
> > >> >> > on it so that emacspeak and Linux could take over an entire computer
> > >> >> > when
> > >> >> > the user was confident enough with it, then many of the issues with
> > >> >> > respect to installation guides at least would go away for those using
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > live cd.  Unfortunately most of my time is taken up by windows or by
> > >> now
> > >> >> > I
> > >> >> > might have learned how to do this and got it done. On Sat, 12 Feb
> > >> 2011,
> > >> >> > Tim Cross wrote:
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> > > On Sat, Feb 12, 2011 at 11:34 AM, Stephen Cagle <samedhi@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> >> > wrote:
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > > I think we can all agree that T.V. Raman is a fine technical
> > >> writer.
> > >> >> > > > I
> > >> >> > > > think there is however a rather limited number of up to date
> > >> >> > > > AND singularly sourced guides to getting started with emacspeak.
> > >> If
> > >> >> > someone
> > >> >> > > > wants to make a minimal "getting up and running with emacspeak"
> > >> >> > > > guide,
> > >> >> > then
> > >> >> > > > I think that would be quite a boon to emacspeak in general.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > There have been several efforts to create 'friendly' user guides,
> > >> >> > > getting
> > >> >> > > started tutorials, etc. The real problem is that once written, they
> > >> >> > > are
> > >> >> > not
> > >> >> > > maintained and over time, become increasingly out of date.  Rather
> > >> >> > > than
> > >> >> > > re-invent the wheel, I think it would be better to start with
> > >> >> > > something
> > >> >> > like
> > >> >> > >  the installation-guide and users-guide which come with emacspeak.
> > >> >> > > Contributions and improvements to these guides have always been
> > >> >> > > welcomed
> > >> >> > in
> > >> >> > > the past. It is better to have one definitive guide for
> > >> >> > > installation
> > >> >> > > and
> > >> >> > use
> > >> >> > > rather than multiple guides scattered around the net in various
> > >> stages
> > >> >> > > of
> > >> >> > > copleteness or levels of accuracy.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Just some random things to consider:
> > >> >> > > > Will emacspeak ever be useful to less technically inclined
> > >> >> > > > people?
> > >> >> > > > That
> > >> >> > is,
> > >> >> > > > will it always primarily be used by programmers and other
> > >> technical
> > >> >> > persons
> > >> >> > > > who use emacs? Is it possible to get less technical people to use
> > >> >> > emacs? Is
> > >> >> > > > it worthwhile?
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Certainly possible for less technical people to use it. Probably
> > >> not
> > >> >> > > worhtwhile trying to do so. I think the best course of action is to
> > >> >> > > make
> > >> >> > > emacspeak as good as possible, with good documentation and let its
> > >> >> > > main
> > >> >> > > drawing power be its alternative (and I would argue better)
> > >> approach.
> > >> >> > > If
> > >> >> > it
> > >> >> > > has enough of an advantage over alternatives, it will attract those
> > >> >> > > who
> > >> >> > > would benefit/appreciate its difference.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > Finally, what about virtualization solutions today? Perhaps a
> > >> >> > > vmware
> > >> >> > > (or
> > >> >> > > > some other) image of a Linux distro with emacspeak properly set
> > >> >> > > > up
> > >> >> > > > and
> > >> >> > > > configured could be created. This would allow novices to "test
> > >> >> > > > drive"
> > >> >> > > > emacspeak without having to take the full Linux/emacs/emacspeak
> > >> >> > > > plunge.
> > >> >> > I
> > >> >> > > > think this might make Alex's goal of bringing emacspeak to the
> > >> >> > > > windows
> > >> >> > > > masses easier, as they would not have to worry about the initial
> > >> >> > hardware
> > >> >> > > > question.
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > > Hmm - not sure. Those who are uncomfortable with the hardware and
> > >> >> > > > Linux
> > >> >> > are
> > >> >> > > probably going to be just as uncomfortable with an appliance
> > >> approach
> > >> >> > > and
> > >> >> > > dealing with virtual machines/images etc.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > I think a better approach would be to help out one of the
> > >> 'specialist'
> > >> >> > > distros like vinux to make sure the emacspeak they include in the
> > >> >> > > distro
> > >> >> > is
> > >> >> > > as robust and optimally configured as possible. People can then run
> > >> >> > > from
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > > live cd image to try things out and later, if they want to, either
> > >> do
> > >> >> > > a
> > >> >> > dual
> > >> >> > > boot or a virtual image.
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > Tim
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> > > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Jason White <jason@xxxxxxxxxxx>
> > >> >> > wrote:
> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > > >> Alex Midence <alex.midence@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > >> >> > > >>
> > >> >> > > >> > I've noticed in my learning of Emacspeak that, while there are
> > >> >> > plenty
> > >> >> > > >> > of reference materials, the number of up-to-date
> > >> >> > > >> > tutorial-style
> > >> >> > > >> > documents geared towards a raw newbie are somewhat sparse and
> > >> >> > > >> > spread
> > >> >> > > >> > out and are written in a way that someone coming from a strong
> > >> Ms
> > >> >> > > >> > Windows background would find rather laborious to follow,
> > >> >> > > >> > increasing
> > >> >> > > >> > their learning curve unnecessarily.  This is probably because
> > >> >> > > >> > a
> > >> >> > > >> > lot
> > >> >> > of
> > >> >> > > >> > it was written by people who have used Linux for longer than
> > >> >> > > >> > Windows
> > >> >> > > >> > has been accessible (oh, what a battle that has been!) and, as
> > >> is
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > > >> > case with many a developer, are more comfortable writing code
> > >> >> > > >> > than
> > >> >> > > >> > writing documents.
> > >> >> > > >>
> > >> >> > > >> Actually, T.V. Raman, the author of Emacspeak, is one of the
> > >> >> > > >> most
> > >> >> > > >> accomplished
> > >> >> > > >> technical writers that I have encountered - he is adept at
> > >> writing
> > >> >> > prose
> > >> >> > > >> as
> > >> >> > > >> well as code.
> > >> >> > > >>
> > >> >> > > >> I would suggest reading his papers describing Emacspeak before
> > >> you
> > >> >> > embark
> > >> >> > > >> on
> > >> >> > > >> preparing a tutorial; this will give you a deeper understanding
> > >> of
> > >> >> > > >> the
> > >> >> > > >> design
> > >> >> > > >> principles of the Emacspeak user interface.
> > >> >> > > >> > What I propose to do is to write a simple tutorial for
> > >> newcomers
> > >> >> > > >> > to
> > >> >> > > >> > Emacspeak geared towards people who are new to command line,
> > >> >> > > >> > Linux
> > >> >> > and
> > >> >> > > >> Emacs
> > >> >> > > >> > as well.
> > >> >> > > >>
> > >> >> > > >> A fundamental question that I would suggest considering is this:
> > >> >> > > >> what
> > >> >> > do
> > >> >> > > >> such
> > >> >> > > >> people really need to know before they can comfortably read
> > >> >> > > >> Emacs
> > >> >> > > >> documentation, manual pages, HOWTO documents and other sources?
> > >> >> > > >>
> > >> >> > > >> I have read claims in several places to the effect that it's
> > >> harder
> > >> >> > for
> > >> >> > > >> former
> > >> >> > > >> MS-Windows users to learn a UNIX-like environment than it is for
> > >> >> > absolute
> > >> >> > > >> beginners who have had no prior computing experience.
> > >> >> > > >> Presumably,
> > >> >> > > >> to
> > >> >> > the
> > >> >> > > >> extent that this is the case, it is because MS-Windows users
> > >> >> > > >> have
> > >> >> > > >> to
> > >> >> > set
> > >> >> > > >> aside
> > >> >> > > >> their prior knowledge and habits in making the adjustment. I'm
> > >> only
> > >> >> > > >> speculating here; the last Microsoft product that I ever used
> > >> >> > > >> was
> > >> >> > > >> DOS
> > >> >> > 6
> > >> >> > > >> and I
> > >> >> > > >> opted entirely out of Windows in favour of Linux at that time.
> > >> >> > > >>
> > >> >> > > >>
> > >> >> > > >>
> > >> >> >
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> > >> >> > > >
> > >> >> > >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >> >
> > >> >
> > >> >
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