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Re: emacspeak and w3



Glad you like it -- it has been my browsing solution for almost 9
months to a year now     -- though I obviously use emacs/w3 for
lots of things too.

Here are some tips from an emacspeak user's point of view to make
the chromevox interaction feel even smoother:

0. Investigate the options on the chromevox options page:  
chrome://extensions, then click chromevox options.

Note that as an alternative to the modifier key -- which requires
you to hold down ctrl-alt on linux, you can define a "prefix key"
I use C-;  -- you could even use C-e.  Once you set up the prefix
key,  the keyboarding model feels more like emacs -- e.g. C-; nh
gets next heading for instance.

Re Skimming -- check out chromevox"continuous read"  hit  C-; r
-- you can then use  left and right arrows to skim back and forth
as it reads continuously.  

Also, note that the ChromeVox code is Open Source, so you can
study how all this works.

>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
    Tim> Hi Raman, well, I have to say, I'm pretty impressed with
    Tim> chromevox and even Lois isn't that bad. In fact, I'm
    Tim> sending this email from within chrome using gmail's
    Tim> standard web UI rather than from VM. It took a little
    Tim> bit to get the layout etc, but wasn't that hard. The
    Tim> Lois TTS has a few pops and clicks, lags a little
    Tim> sometimes, but is quite usable.
    Tim> 
    Tim> For others who may be interested, this was so easy to
    Tim> install on my xubuntu 12.04 box. All I had to do was
    Tim> 
    Tim> 1. Remove the Ubuntu chromium-browser package
    Tim> 
    Tim> 2. Download the deb version of google.chrome from the
    Tim> google website. I'm running the 64 bit version
    Tim> 
    Tim> 3. Install the deb padkage
    Tim> 
    Tim> 4. Go tot he chrome store and install the Loix TTS
    Tim> extension and then the chromevox extension.
    Tim> 
    Tim> Thats it. I then just read most of the uses guide and I
    Tim> was up and going. Very simple and very fast.
    Tim> 
    Tim> The browsing model for chromevox seems very good. It is
    Tim> easy to move from a high level grop browsing to objet,
    Tim> paragraph, sentence, word or right down to
    Tim> character. Jumping back and forward between links or
    Tim> headers is easy. I quite like the idea of skimming
    Tim> around the page at a group level and then drilling down
    Tim> into object or paragraph etc once I find bits I'm
    Tim> interested in.
    Tim> 
    Tim> Really looking forward to seeing how well this works on
    Tim> other websites. Would also like to see if it is possible
    Tim> to make it work with other TTS engines or not. Lois is
    Tim> OK, but it would be nice to have the familiar viavoice
    Tim> engine.
    Tim> 
    Tim> I'm really impressed with how well this works when you
    Tim> consider it is all just running as browser
    Tim> extensions. I'm going to go and read the article Raman
    Tim> posted about that describes this work at
    Tim> http://google-axs-chrome.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/developer/chromevox-overview-2012/paper.html
    Tim> 
    Tim> regards,
    Tim> 
    Tim> Tim
    Tim> 
    Tim> On 13 May 2012 15:10, Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
    Tim> wrote:
    >> OK, will try and get a version of the chrome browser from
    >> google which has the macl stuff built in - rather
    >> irritating if Ubuntu doesn't do this.
    >> 
    >> Willl also work on fixing up the mm-* stuff so that we
    >> have a current setup that fits with current defaults
    >> packaged with emacs 24 and possibly some docs for those
    >> who may prefer to use their own config rather than
    >> customize. I noticed when I whent to setup mine that
    >> something I'm loading is already customizing things
    >> outside the standard customize framework, which may cause
    >> unreliable results if I don't track it down.
    >> 
    >> Thanks for the clarification the other stuff is either old
    >> kruft or errors from cut and paste. Again, will sort
    >> things out and report back.
    >> 
    >> Tim
    >> 
    >> 
    >> On 13 May 2012 00:58, T. V. Raman <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com>
    >> wrote:
    >>> 
    >>> responses in-lined:
    >>> 
    >>>>>>>> "Tim" == Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:
    >>>    Tim> I installed lois and chromevox from the chrome  
    >>> Tim> store. Running version Chromium 18.0.1025.168 from  
    >>> Tim> ubuntu 12.04, but no luck getting it working
    >>> yet. Not    Tim> sue how to verify nacl support - looks
    >>> like it was added    Tim> in v14 and it is
    >>> listed/mentioned in the copyright file See Jason's
    >>> note. Not all debian/ubuntu builds include nacl. Get
    >>> package google-chrome -- rather than chromium.
    >>> 
    >>>    Tim> of this version, but no luck yet.    Tim>    Tim>
    >>> On another note, seem to have run itno a bug with emacs  
    >>> Tim> 24 url, so now I cannot follow links in w3. Seems to
    >>> be
    >>> 
    >>> this is transient. A couple of weeks ago, they broke all
    >>> google search result links -- see the advice in
    >>> emacspeak-w3.el that "canonicalizes google result urls
    >>> when passed to the url library.  I  filed a bug and I
    >>> suspect they broke something else in fixing that. Make
    >>> sure you're running emacspeak from svn and that you have
    >>> the latest snapshot as well.
    >>> 
    >>>    Tim> losing the 'host' value somewhere, so throws a
    >>> stingp    Tim> nil error. Was working with a version of
    >>> emacs from    Tim> earlier in the week, so probably just
    >>> a temporary hitch.
    >>> 
    >>> 
    >>>    Tim>    Tim> Was working through your mm-customize.el
    >>> file and    Tim> noticed something which I found a bit
    >>> confusing. In it,    Tim> you have some tests under the
    >>> mm--inline-media-tests that is old cruft, and the or is a
    >>> no-op -- consequence of cut    Tim> and paste.
    >>> 
    >>>    Tim> setting of the form    Tim>    Tim> (lambda
    >>> (&rest ignore) (or mm-text-html-renderer    Tim>
    >>> mm-text-html-renderer))    Tim>    Tim> I don't
    >>> understand the or statement. It has the same    Tim>
    >>> varible for both paths - seems like a weird thing to do,
    >>> Tim> unless there is something I'm missing? I would have
    >>> Tim> thought just returning the var would achieve the
    >>> same    Tim> result? Just curious really as I always like
    >>> to try and    Tim> understand bits of elisp I come
    >>> across.    Tim>    Tim>    Tim> Tim    Tim>    Tim>  
    >>> Tim> On 12 May 2012 13:05, T. V. Raman    Tim>
    >>> <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com> wrote:    >> nds good.    >>  
    >>> >> My own choice for general purpose browsing is Chrome
    >>> with    >> chromevox loaded -- give that a shot.    >>  
    >>> >> You'll need to:    >>    >> 1. Install ChromeVox and
    >>> the Lois voice from the Chrome    >> Web Store; 2. Ensure
    >>> that your Chrome has nacl support.    >>    >> Eventually
    >>> I'd like to use Chrome's remote debugging API    >>  to
    >>> connect emacs to Chrome --- and do the following:    >>  
    >>> >> Use ChromeVox to work with the general purpose Web.  
    >>> >>    >> 2. Use the remote port connection between Emacs
    >>> and Chrome    >> to get Web content into Emacs so you can
    >>> further    >> manipulate it as desired. All of this is a
    >>> fair bit of    >> work.    >>    >>>>>>> "Tim" == Tim
    >>> Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com> writes:    >>    Tim> I
    >>> could be way off the mark, but my thoughts were    >>
    >>> that    Tim> the w3 rendering code could be a worthwhile
    >>> >> reference    Tim> wrt rendering, but most of it would
    >>> need    >> to be    Tim> updated/modified - same with the
    >>> css    >> module. I would    Tim> like to see something
    >>> with very    >> separate and independent    Tim> modules
    >>> that each have a    >> well defined interface that are  
    >>> Tim> all hooked up    >> together to provide a usable
    >>> browser AND    Tim> provide a    >> useful set of
    >>> utilities that could be used for    Tim>    >> other
    >>> processin and provide an interesting tool set for    >>
    >>> Tim> experimentation and personal customization.    Tim>
    >>> >>    Tim> It is probably this last part, experimentation
    >>> and    >>    Tim> customization for specific tasks I find
    >>> most    >> appealing    Tim> about w3. For general
    >>> browsing, I am    >> finding it    Tim> increasingly
    >>> necessary to use something    >> like firefox or    Tim>
    >>> chromium. However, as the epub    >> stuff you did shows,
    >>> Tim> there is still a lot of    >> potential for a
    >>> reliable text    Tim> browser with a very    >> close
    >>> integration with emacs that    Tim> will allow us to  
    >>> >> manipulate components with custom    Tim> elisp.  
    >>> Tim>    >>  Tim> Tim    Tim>    Tim> On 11 May 2012
    >>> 13:23,    >> T. V. Raman    Tim> <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com>
    >>> wrote:    >>    >> shr doesn't use any of the W3
    >>> rendering code.    >>    >>    >> Unfortunately the parse
    >>> structure that the W3 parser    >>    >> builds is not
    >>> exactly the same shape as that returned by    >>  >>
    >>> libxml -- so you'd have to do a bit of work before the  
    >>> >> W3    >> renderer can eat the libxml parse tree. But
    >>> it    >> shouldn't    >> be a huge amount of work.    >>
    >>> >>>>>>>    >> "Tim" == Tim Cross <theophilusx@gmail.com>
    >>> writes:    >>    >>  Tim> Now that is very
    >>> interesting. Will certainly be    >>  >> checking    Tim>
    >>> out shr - this is exactly along the    >> same    >>
    >>> lines as I was    Tim> thinking wrt moving w3    >>
    >>> forward and    >> helping to ensure it    Tim> doesn't
    >>> end    >> up dying of bit    >> rot.    Tim>    Tim>
    >>> Since emacs    >> added the interface to    >> libxml,
    >>> I've been    Tim>    >> wondering about how much work  
    >>> >> this would take, so    >> I'm    Tim> quite excited to
    >>> find that    >> thiswork has    >> already started.  
    >>> Tim>    Tim> Tim    Tim>    >> Tim> On    >> 11 May 2012
    >>> 03:47, T.V. Raman    >>    >> <tv.raman.tv@gmail.com>  
    >>> Tim> wrote:    >> From an    >>    >> Emacspeak
    >>> perspective, W3 will always trump W3M    >>  in    >>  
    >>> >> terms of features --- w3m in emacs is nice, but the  
    >>> >>    >>    >> integration leaves a lot to be desired --
    >>> in    >> that emacs/w3    >> >> only gets its hands on
    >>> the content    >> after w3m itself has    >> >> done the
    >>> bulk of the    >> rendering.    >>    >> In the best  
    >>> >> of all worlds,    >> the parsing and dom    >>
    >>> construction    >> would happen    >> in the native layer
    >>> --- and the    >>    >> rendering    >> happen in the
    >>> lisp layer.  Module shr is a    >>    >>    >> beginning
    >>> to that end --- in that it uses libxml to do the    >>  
    >>> >> >> parsing --    >>    >> On 5/9/12, Robert    >>
    >>> D. Crawford    >> <robdcraw@gmail.com> wrote:    >>> "Tim
    >>> >> Cross"    >> <tcross@une.edu.au> writes:    >>>  
    >>> >>>>    >> The really nice    >> thing is that since
    >>> machines have    >> gotten    >>>> so much    >> faster
    >>> in the past few years,    >> the slower    >>>> rendering
    >>> >> time of w3 compared to    >> w3m is pretty much  
    >>> >>>>    >> unnoticeable except on    >> really large html
    >>> files.    >>>    >> >>> I've not used    >> w3m in such a
    >>> long time.  I've preferred    >> w3    >>>    >> since I
    >>> first used it.  Glad to hear I'm not    >> really    >>  
    >>> >>> missing out on speed.    >>>    >>>> thanks    >>  
    >>> >> again, you have made my day!    >>>    >>> You are
    >>> quite    >>  >> welcome.  Glad to have been of
    >>> assistance.    >>>    >>  >>>    >> rdc    >>> --    >>>
    >>> Robert D. Crawford    >>>    >>    >> robdcraw@gmail.com
    >>> >>>    >>>    >>    >>
    >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >>> >>    >> >>> To unsubscribe from the emacspeak list or
    >>> change    >> your    >> >>> address on the emacspeak list
    >>> send mail to    >>    >>>    >>
    >>> "emacspeak-request@cs.vassar.edu" with a    >> subject of
    >>> >>>    >> "unsubscribe" or "help".    >>>    >>  >>>  
    >>> >>    >>    >>    >>
    >>> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    >>> >>    >> >> To unsubscribe from the emacspeak list or
    >>> change    >> your    >> >> address on the emacspeak list
    >>> send mail to    >>  >>    >>
    >>> "emacspeak-request@cs.vassar.edu" with a subject    >> of
    >>> >>    >> "unsubscribe" or "help".    >>    Tim>    >>
    >>> Tim>    Tim>    >> Tim> -- Tim Cross    >>    >> --    >>
    >>> >> Best Regards, --raman    >>    >> --    >> Best
    >>> Regards,    >> --raman    Tim>    Tim>    Tim>    Tim> --
    >>> Tim Cross    >>    >> --    >> Best Regards, --raman  
    >>> Tim>    Tim>    Tim>    Tim> -- Tim Cross
    >>> 
    >>> --
    >>> Best Regards, --raman
    >> 
    >> 
    >> 
    >> --
    >> Tim Cross
    Tim> 
    Tim> 
    Tim> 
    Tim> -- Tim Cross

--
Best Regards,
--raman

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