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Re: Notes on how to read tables with Emacspeak 8.0 and W3 4.0 beta



I agree there are mor interesting challenges than just getting row and
column labels to read out automatically. But, we don't even have that yet,
right? So, all I'm saying is that we should cover the basics before doing
the graduate work--sort of like crawling before walking. How well would
sighted users do with tables if the lables were hidden? Not well at all, I
suspect.



				Janina Sajka, Director
				Information Systems Department
				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)

janina@afb.net


On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, T. V. Raman wrote:

> There is no single default that will be the "right" thing in
> all situations--
> the right thing is to leave that user customizable. And just
> doing that will not solve the issues with lots of tables, 
> the more interesting/challenging cases are where you nest
> tables, use colspans to achieve interesting visual
> relationships between elements and subtables etc.
> 
> Janina Sajka writes:
>  > 
>  > The issue of tables will not be fully solved until the relevant labels for
>  > each cell are also readable automatically. In other words, it's useful and
>  > meaningful to be able to issue a cell left command--but the output that's
>  > read after such a command should include the new column heading as well as
>  > the cell value. Ditto for movements up and down--where the new row label
>  > should be automatically read.
>  > 
>  > 
>  > 
>  > 				Janina Sajka, Director
>  > 				Information Systems Department
>  > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
>  > 
>  > janina@afb.net
>  > 
>  > 
>  > On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, T. V. Raman wrote:
>  > 
>  > > Thanks for posting the summary.
>  > > An update on what is happening with tables.
>  > > 
>  > > We discovered that a large number of tables generated by
>  > > wysiwyg html editors were bombing inside emacspeak because
>  > > they all produce an octal 225 for a bullet --it's a single
>  > > character that takes 4 spaces when displayed.
>  > > This meant that when we computed the column alignment in the
>  > > emacspeak extension things got computed wrong.
>  > > 
>  > > Thierry.Emery@nmu.alcatel.fr
>  > > who helped me write the table structure code wrote a patch
>  > > for this that I am testing and it appears to work-- but I
>  > > also seem to have broken 
>  > > the code I wrote for handling nested tables (not yet
>  > > released).
>  > > 
>  > > Anyway, html tables are an unholy mess --given the hacks
>  > > that the commercial browser vendors have snuck in, it turns
>  > > out that each table cell in its ultimate glory (or may be it
>  > > should be gory) is an HTML page in its own right for
>  > > purposes of rendering
>  > > --and that's how the various wysiwyg editors are emitting
>  > > them.
>  > > 
>  > > Jason White writes:
>  > >  > Having raised this topic on the mailing list recently, I thought it would
>  > >  > be worthwhile to explain briefly how Emacs 8.0 and W3 4.0 make it possible
>  > >  > to read tables effectively. I was unable to find documentation of this
>  > >  > feature in the Emacspeak manual, but, as always, Emacs itself provides
>  > >  > extensive internal documentation which is especially helpful in this case.
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > The sample table which T. V. Raman posted to the list recently, precisely
>  > >  > for this purpose, serves as an excellent starting point. Load it into W3
>  > >  > and then use c-h b to list the current Emacs key bindings. Among these you
>  > >  > will find commands specific to table navigation. For example, c-e cursor
>  > >  > right moves to the next column and reads the table cell in that column;
>  > >  > c-e left does the opposite of this, as one would expect; c-e up moves to
>  > >  > the previous cell in the current column, and is mirrored by c-e down; c-e
>  > >  > < moves to the start of the table, c-e > moves to the end of the table
>  > >  > (the last row), etc. The interface is straightforward and my description
>  > >  > here is merely stating the obvious. C-h b provides a full list of key
>  > >  > bindings.
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > 
>  > >  > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>  > > 
>  > > -- 
>  > > Best Regards,
>  > > --raman
>  > > 
>  > >       Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-612)
>  > >       Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
>  > >       (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
>  > >       San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
>  > >       http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
>  > >       http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
>  > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>  > >     Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should be taken
>  > > as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
>  > > ____________________________________________________________
>  > > 
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>  > >        To unsubscribe or change your address send mail to
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>  > > 
>  > > 
> 
> -- 
> Best Regards,
> --raman
> 
>       Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-612)
>       Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
>       (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
>       San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
>       http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
>       http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>     Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should be taken
> as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
> ____________________________________________________________
> 

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