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Re: Notes on how to read tables with Emacspeak 8.0 and W3 4.0 beta



So what makes you assume that 
I cannot currently speak the table headers?

Remember, I have little interest in "selling or "marketing"
" emacspeak---- so in general you should not assume the
feature set to be what you read about.

Now, if I were selling you the product for thousands of
dollars like some companies, 
I would have a lot of incentive to tell you every six months
that the "table access problem is solved!*!"


Janina Sajka writes:
 > I agree there are mor interesting challenges than just getting row and
 > column labels to read out automatically. But, we don't even have that yet,
 > right? So, all I'm saying is that we should cover the basics before doing
 > the graduate work--sort of like crawling before walking. How well would
 > sighted users do with tables if the lables were hidden? Not well at all, I
 > suspect.
 > 
 > 
 > 
 > 				Janina Sajka, Director
 > 				Information Systems Department
 > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
 > 
 > janina@afb.net
 > 
 > 
 > On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, T. V. Raman wrote:
 > 
 > > There is no single default that will be the "right" thing in
 > > all situations--
 > > the right thing is to leave that user customizable. And just
 > > doing that will not solve the issues with lots of tables, 
 > > the more interesting/challenging cases are where you nest
 > > tables, use colspans to achieve interesting visual
 > > relationships between elements and subtables etc.
 > > 
 > > Janina Sajka writes:
 > >  > 
 > >  > The issue of tables will not be fully solved until the relevant labels for
 > >  > each cell are also readable automatically. In other words, it's useful and
 > >  > meaningful to be able to issue a cell left command--but the output that's
 > >  > read after such a command should include the new column heading as well as
 > >  > the cell value. Ditto for movements up and down--where the new row label
 > >  > should be automatically read.
 > >  > 
 > >  > 
 > >  > 
 > >  > 				Janina Sajka, Director
 > >  > 				Information Systems Department
 > >  > 				American Foundation for the Blind (AFB)
 > >  > 
 > >  > janina@afb.net
 > >  > 
 > >  > 
 > >  > On Wed, 23 Sep 1998, T. V. Raman wrote:
 > >  > 
 > >  > > Thanks for posting the summary.
 > >  > > An update on what is happening with tables.
 > >  > > 
 > >  > > We discovered that a large number of tables generated by
 > >  > > wysiwyg html editors were bombing inside emacspeak because
 > >  > > they all produce an octal 225 for a bullet --it's a single
 > >  > > character that takes 4 spaces when displayed.
 > >  > > This meant that when we computed the column alignment in the
 > >  > > emacspeak extension things got computed wrong.
 > >  > > 
 > >  > > Thierry.Emery@nmu.alcatel.fr
 > >  > > who helped me write the table structure code wrote a patch
 > >  > > for this that I am testing and it appears to work-- but I
 > >  > > also seem to have broken 
 > >  > > the code I wrote for handling nested tables (not yet
 > >  > > released).
 > >  > > 
 > >  > > Anyway, html tables are an unholy mess --given the hacks
 > >  > > that the commercial browser vendors have snuck in, it turns
 > >  > > out that each table cell in its ultimate glory (or may be it
 > >  > > should be gory) is an HTML page in its own right for
 > >  > > purposes of rendering
 > >  > > --and that's how the various wysiwyg editors are emitting
 > >  > > them.
 > >  > > 
 > >  > > Jason White writes:
 > >  > >  > Having raised this topic on the mailing list recently, I thought it would
 > >  > >  > be worthwhile to explain briefly how Emacs 8.0 and W3 4.0 make it possible
 > >  > >  > to read tables effectively. I was unable to find documentation of this
 > >  > >  > feature in the Emacspeak manual, but, as always, Emacs itself provides
 > >  > >  > extensive internal documentation which is especially helpful in this case.
 > >  > >  > 
 > >  > >  > The sample table which T. V. Raman posted to the list recently, precisely
 > >  > >  > for this purpose, serves as an excellent starting point. Load it into W3
 > >  > >  > and then use c-h b to list the current Emacs key bindings. Among these you
 > >  > >  > will find commands specific to table navigation. For example, c-e cursor
 > >  > >  > right moves to the next column and reads the table cell in that column;
 > >  > >  > c-e left does the opposite of this, as one would expect; c-e up moves to
 > >  > >  > the previous cell in the current column, and is mirrored by c-e down; c-e
 > >  > >  > < moves to the start of the table, c-e > moves to the end of the table
 > >  > >  > (the last row), etc. The interface is straightforward and my description
 > >  > >  > here is merely stating the obvious. C-h b provides a full list of key
 > >  > >  > bindings.
 > >  > >  > 
 > >  > >  > 
 > >  > >  > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > >  > >  >        To unsubscribe or change your address send mail to
 > >  > >  > "emacspeak-request@cs.vassar.edu" with a subject of "unsubscribe" or "help"
 > >  > > 
 > >  > > -- 
 > >  > > Best Regards,
 > >  > > --raman
 > >  > > 
 > >  > >       Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-612)
 > >  > >       Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
 > >  > >       (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
 > >  > >       San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
 > >  > >       http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
 > >  > >       http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
 > >  > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 > >  > >     Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should be taken
 > >  > > as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
 > >  > > ____________________________________________________________
 > >  > > 
 > >  > > -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
 > >  > >        To unsubscribe or change your address send mail to
 > >  > > "emacspeak-request@cs.vassar.edu" with a subject of "unsubscribe" or "help"
 > >  > > 
 > >  > > 
 > > 
 > > -- 
 > > Best Regards,
 > > --raman
 > > 
 > >       Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-612)
 > >       Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
 > >       (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
 > >       San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
 > >       http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
 > >       http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
 > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 > >     Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should be taken
 > > as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
 > > ____________________________________________________________
 > > 

-- 
Best Regards,
--raman

      Adobe Systems                 Tel: 1 (408) 536 3945   (W14-612)
      Advanced Technology Group     Fax: 1 (408) 537 4042 
      (W14 129) 345 Park Avenue     Email: raman@adobe.com 
      San Jose , CA 95110 -2704     Email:  raman@cs.cornell.edu
      http://labrador.corp.adobe.com/~raman/        (Adobe Intranet)
      http://cs.cornell.edu/home/raman/raman.html    (Cornell)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are my own and in no way should be taken
as representative of my employer, Adobe Systems Inc.
____________________________________________________________

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